Heh. I think you’d struggle to find anywhere that I called you evil or even suggested you are! I’ve consistently defended your right to post, and stated I fully agree that sexism is an issue in this industry. I’m in agreement on the need to raise the level of female speaker (and attendee) representation.

However, people’s reactions to the events you raised have obviously (from the wide-ranging comments) varied immensely. Feeling discriminated or objectified is a very personal thing. As such, I still feel that some sort of initial personal contact would been a good starting point. I can understand it could be a difficult issue to raise, but there were at least three extremely capable and savvy female staff widely available, any of whom I’m confident would have taken your comments very seriously. As I’ve said before, you still would have been able to blog about it afterwards, especially if the response had been lacking (or even if it had been positive!).

I think you’re being a bit fey in saying “The organisers are in a unique position due to the web to access the comments”. That cuts both ways: the lack of friction on the web means that before they had a chance to make any sort of response, there was another post entitled “Sexism and WebDU” and a raft of comments from people who hadn’t even attended. I’d imagine they felt somewhat ambushed, and I don’t know that’s the best position to begin from to tackle a serious issue. (Coda: I’m not Geoff and Julie, so this is only my personal assessment and opinion!)

I wasn’t at the other sessions you talked about, so I can’t comment there. But in terms of the animations, I unreservedly apologise for any discomfort they caused. That certainly wasn’t the intention (although I know intent isn’t everything).

As I noted above, sometimes hearing someone else’s viewpoint can ameliorate angst. Did my explanation that it parodies 50s ads, and by definition is only funny because it highlights how far we’ve come since then, make any difference? Or do you still feel that we seriously stating that “Aussie men still think of women as being housewives and not professionals”. You noted that “all of the other characters were male” as one of its faults; does it make any difference that the characters were a man, a woman, a boy and a dog (of indeterminate gender)? The character in the Ruby on Rails skit shown just before the Coldfusion one also meets a fairly horrific ending. Did this animation also make you uncomfortable?

I’m seriously interested in your opinion, because we’re actively involved in trying to make people smile rather than feel beaten down. I’m more than happy to continue to comment here, or to follow up off-list: minty@nectarine.com.au. Or if you think things have run as far as it’s worth on this point, that’s fine too. I’ll leave it in your court.

And I don’t think you’re evil, any more than I believe we’re the supreme male overlords of sexist animation

I’ve just (to my shame, I should have done it before) seen the cartoon in question. Kinda Cute – Jon K-esque pomo kitchy thing. The particular shame on my part is that I have been called sexist for showing a 30 second clip of one of the earliest ever films – the execution of Mary Queen of Scots – by way of example of what a new medium (cinema) was like about the same age as the web was when I have that presentation. So, I should have appreciated more the possibility of an over reaction (swhicbh I think on th face of just seein gthat one short animation it is fair to characterize the negative responses as). But I think the over reation was probably contextual. The original poster puts it in the context of other slides, presentations and so on at the conference which used clearly more problematic images. All together, perhaps there is a pattern to which the original posters response seems a lot more reasonable than the specific issue we’ve debated in detail here.

And all of this is in the broader context of the place of women in the web, and IT industries, an issue that keeps bubbling away, and has really come to the boil with the recent events around Kathy Sierra’s blog.

Clearly it is an important issue to many people, and it won’t simply go away. So when it comes up, it bears careful attention, and rather than quibbling and defensiveness, perhaps a better response is to ask – why? whats going on? why is there something I can’t see that others can, and feel strongly about? Sometimes they’ll be being unreasonable – but that should be what we discover after a good hard look, after than being the default position, at least in my opinion.

john

Minty, you make me sound evil. I am not. All I did was ask to ensure my understanding that my ticket didn’t include the dinner, was correct. I did not request free entry into the dinner. (Even if I did, that does not affect the speakers or animators).

I regularly ask things I think I already know. I’m not the only person who does this. A good example from last night: a fellow graduand got off at the train station she believed correct for her, and made sure by asking the conductor. Conductor informed her she was incorrect so she quickly hopped back into the train.

If you want to make me out as evil, I’ll help you: Even better, earlier on the day, I received completely free information I didn’t earn: I was directed towards the toilets. How dare I!

All that is different about my post is that I posted it. The reality is that it is my impression, and when people ask about it, that is what I am going to say. The organisers are in a unique position due to the web to access the comments, and either decide to listen to it or ignore it. What they do is up to them.

So much talent, and I don’t have it… if only I could be that guy off Hereos whom steals peoples powers…

(I just thought of a great Microsoft joke then, but better not tap it out).

Kay: Can you declare this thread dead … last drinks ladies & gents?

I understand this. In this case, however, I still stand by the animation as not being sexist. It parodies 50s ads, and by definition is only funny because it highlights how far we’ve come since then (will, obviously, still some distance to go!). Various women viewed the animation before it screened publicly (including one of the animators) and there was no reaction other than laughter. FWIW, it’s up at http://animation.nectarine.com.au for anyone who wishes to make their own interpretation.

I was fairly shocked that someone took it as a serious statement that all Australian men consider all women to be housewives (not the least because I’m in NZ, the first country in the world to give women the vote, and with a great female prime minister). I was shaken that we had a hand in making someone unhappy with a conference we really respect.

However, I completely understand that people will react differently, and have said I respect RowliRowl’s POV. As a conference organiser, however, you must appreciate that it’s hard to do something about things you don’t know about. The animation was the very first thing in the conference. Geoff, Julie, Vanessa and Erietta were widely available. Rowli was comfortable enough to ask them about getting a free pass to the banquet, but didn’t raise the sexism issue. I’m glad she blogged it, because it’s an issue that needs focus, but if, as you suggest, an apology might have been appreciated, that’s certainly more forthcoming if you approach someone privately rather than having them hear about it from posts entitled ‘WebDU and Sexism’ (a response to Rowli’s post).

I certainly would have been happy to chat directly with her if she wished, explain our mindset in writing the scripts, and if that made little difference, apologise unreservedly. A friendly response at least might have made her feel more comfortable with the rest of the conference.

I too am glad to see that a fairly level headed conversation has taken place (well, check out the exchange with Haya in the comments on Rowli’s post for an alternative reality take . And I’m sure that when they’ve decompressed, Geoff and Julie would be interested in chatting to you about your experiences as an organiser, and any tips you’d have…