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	<title>Comments on: Another angle on the frameworks debate</title>
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	<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/</link>
	<description>ColdFusion and best practices web building</description>
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		<title>By: ike</title>
		<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-312</link>
		<dc:creator>ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/#comment-312</guid>
		<description>@Brad ... I actually agree with your assessment... However I personally find that even for a really small app that only I&#039;ll ever use, I&#039;m able to crank it out a lot faster using DataFaucet and the onTap framework.

That&#039;s in part because the onTap framework doesn&#039;t require mental acrobatics around the notion of an &quot;event&quot; and its &quot;results&quot;. It certainly allows you the ability to code that way if you find a need, but it&#039;s just as easy to just write a simple page that creates a DataFaucet activerecord and uses that to populate a form.

The other half of that story is that all the data normalization is already done and handled by the activerecord. Before I created DataFaucet actually, I wrote an article about porting Ray Camden&#039;s Galleon forums to 4 different frameworks (onTap, Mach-II, Model-Glue and Fusebox 5) and although I didn&#039;t port to any other ORMs, I did port the queries to the onTap framework ORM (now DataFaucet). That sub-article is also included in the DataFaucet documentation, showing how I removed about 500-600 lines of code from Ray&#039;s original components.

On a very small app for just myself, I wouldn&#039;t expect to see that many lines of code removed. If I measure the amount of time I spend coding however, I spend less time and get more done when I use DataFaucet and the onTap framework. So it&#039;s not always true that using a framework is extra overhead in terms of man-hours. In some cases it means fewer man-hours.

Do I need to use DF/onTap for those apps? No. But I use them there like I do for other projects, so that I can get them done faster.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brad &#8230; I actually agree with your assessment&#8230; However I personally find that even for a really small app that only I&#8217;ll ever use, I&#8217;m able to crank it out a lot faster using DataFaucet and the onTap framework.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s in part because the onTap framework doesn&#8217;t require mental acrobatics around the notion of an &#8220;event&#8221; and its &#8220;results&#8221;. It certainly allows you the ability to code that way if you find a need, but it&#8217;s just as easy to just write a simple page that creates a DataFaucet activerecord and uses that to populate a form.</p>
<p>The other half of that story is that all the data normalization is already done and handled by the activerecord. Before I created DataFaucet actually, I wrote an article about porting Ray Camden&#8217;s Galleon forums to 4 different frameworks (onTap, Mach-II, Model-Glue and Fusebox 5) and although I didn&#8217;t port to any other ORMs, I did port the queries to the onTap framework ORM (now DataFaucet). That sub-article is also included in the DataFaucet documentation, showing how I removed about 500-600 lines of code from Ray&#8217;s original components.</p>
<p>On a very small app for just myself, I wouldn&#8217;t expect to see that many lines of code removed. If I measure the amount of time I spend coding however, I spend less time and get more done when I use DataFaucet and the onTap framework. So it&#8217;s not always true that using a framework is extra overhead in terms of man-hours. In some cases it means fewer man-hours.</p>
<p>Do I need to use DF/onTap for those apps? No. But I use them there like I do for other projects, so that I can get them done faster.</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Melendy</title>
		<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-321</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Melendy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/#comment-321</guid>
		<description>In response to the question, &quot;Is there a point where a web application is so small or so simple that adding a framework simply adds unnecessary overhead?&quot;

From my perspective, a resounding yes.  If you are writing a small app all on your own and odds are that nobody else will ever touch it, just crank the fast spaghetti code.  Heck, put the whole thing in a single file even.  ;-)

Now, I do support frameworks, but they have their place and the quick and dirty CRUD apps that are more of a utility than anything else just don&#039;t need it.  I liken it to the people who feel compelled to normalize a database down to using a table named GENDER with three columns, ID, GENDER_CODE and DESCRIPTION and ensure all the constraints are there so the parent table stores the ID.  Come on, just put M or F in your parent table and save the frameworks for the apps that really need/demand them.  ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In response to the question, &#8220;Is there a point where a web application is so small or so simple that adding a framework simply adds unnecessary overhead?&#8221;</p>
<p>From my perspective, a resounding yes.  If you are writing a small app all on your own and odds are that nobody else will ever touch it, just crank the fast spaghetti code.  Heck, put the whole thing in a single file even.  <img src='http://kay.smoljak.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Now, I do support frameworks, but they have their place and the quick and dirty CRUD apps that are more of a utility than anything else just don&#8217;t need it.  I liken it to the people who feel compelled to normalize a database down to using a table named GENDER with three columns, ID, GENDER_CODE and DESCRIPTION and ensure all the constraints are there so the parent table stores the ID.  Come on, just put M or F in your parent table and save the frameworks for the apps that really need/demand them.  <img src='http://kay.smoljak.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: ike</title>
		<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-314</link>
		<dc:creator>ike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/#comment-314</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s another one for PHP called Horde...

But I was thinking ... I dunno... languages that prompt criticism... How about Lasso + FileMaker? :) You know with all the talk about LAMP stacks and LAMBDA stacks, they could set up a Lasso Apache Ubuntu FileMaker (LAUF) stack, that&#039;d be a hoot. :)

Though seriously, I think from within any given software community it tends to seem that the community is always under attack from the outside, whether it&#039;s Microsoft technologies or Adobe techs or PHP or Ruby. If you study cognitive science at all, you come to realize that those sorts of skewed perceptions are fairly universal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s another one for PHP called Horde&#8230;</p>
<p>But I was thinking &#8230; I dunno&#8230; languages that prompt criticism&#8230; How about Lasso + FileMaker? <img src='http://kay.smoljak.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  You know with all the talk about LAMP stacks and LAMBDA stacks, they could set up a Lasso Apache Ubuntu FileMaker (LAUF) stack, that&#8217;d be a hoot. <img src='http://kay.smoljak.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Though seriously, I think from within any given software community it tends to seem that the community is always under attack from the outside, whether it&#8217;s Microsoft technologies or Adobe techs or PHP or Ruby. If you study cognitive science at all, you come to realize that those sorts of skewed perceptions are fairly universal.</p>
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		<title>By: kay</title>
		<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-313</link>
		<dc:creator>kay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:29:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/#comment-313</guid>
		<description>Myles and Thomas - I wasn&#039;t really commenting on whether the statement &quot;PHP is it&#039;s own framework&quot; was true or not - in actual fact, I don&#039;t really care either way. The OP&#039;s side has an answer they believe is true, based in practise... your side was an answer that you believe is true, based in computer science.

What I did find interesting was that the arguments being used in favour of PHP work even better when applied to ColdFusion. But I can get a bit one-track-minded like that :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Myles and Thomas &#8211; I wasn&#8217;t really commenting on whether the statement &#8220;PHP is it&#8217;s own framework&#8221; was true or not &#8211; in actual fact, I don&#8217;t really care either way. The OP&#8217;s side has an answer they believe is true, based in practise&#8230; your side was an answer that you believe is true, based in computer science.</p>
<p>What I did find interesting was that the arguments being used in favour of PHP work even better when applied to ColdFusion. But I can get a bit one-track-minded like that <img src='http://kay.smoljak.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Thomas Sutton</title>
		<link>http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/comment-page-1/#comment-320</link>
		<dc:creator>Thomas Sutton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:04:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://kay.smoljak.com/index.php/another-angle-on-the-frameworks-debate/#comment-320</guid>
		<description>As Myles said, PHP is no more a framework than Lua, or Ruby, or C++, or Common Lisp, or any other programming language. Even further, the term framework tends to imply some overarching design principle or philosophy -- some idea of &#039;this is how we do it&#039; -- that is entirely lacking in PHP. They can&#039;t even figure out how to work around the lack of namespaces by append or prepending to the name of every symbol...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Myles said, PHP is no more a framework than Lua, or Ruby, or C++, or Common Lisp, or any other programming language. Even further, the term framework tends to imply some overarching design principle or philosophy &#8212; some idea of &#8216;this is how we do it&#8217; &#8212; that is entirely lacking in PHP. They can&#8217;t even figure out how to work around the lack of namespaces by append or prepending to the name of every symbol&#8230;</p>
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